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The Wheel of Time Reread Redux: The Eye of the World, Part 27

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The Wheel of Time Reread Redux: <em>The Eye of the World</em>, Part 27

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The Wheel of Time Reread Redux: The Eye of the World, Part 27

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Published on April 28, 2015

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THE WHEEL OF TIME REREAD REDUX IS NOT HERE. EVEN THOUGH IT IS. I WILL TAKE NO PART. EVEN THOUGH I OBVIOUSLY AM.

#helping

Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 50 and 51 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post.

All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com. The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!

All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk. And now, the post!

Before we begin: JordanCon 7, The Con of the Red Hand is now a thing of the past, even if several of my internal organs still do not entirely agree, but fortunately I’m keeping the spirit alive for at least a smidge longer by verbosing all over everything about it, yay! Part 1 of my report went up yesterday, and Part 2 went up today! Check ‘em out, whydontcha?

AND ANOTHER THING! My dear friend and fellow Tor.com blogger Kate Nepveu has asked me to let y’all know that Con or Bust, the organization dedicated to helping fans of color attend cons, is currently having its annual auction to raise funds. Their stash of cool swag this year includes some fabulous Wheel of Time e-book art cover prints, which I know some a y’all want to get your grubby little hands on. Bidding closes on May 3rd, so check it out soon!

Onward!

Chapter 50: Meetings at the Eye

Redux Commentary

I get why we didn’t, but I kind of wish we’d gotten to hang out with the Green Man a little bit more before he treed himself. (Ba dum dum) He was such an interesting creature.

A lot of the reason for that, of course, is all the archetypal and mythological bells he rang. The basic concept of the Green Man—a humanlike creature or deity that is “one with nature”, pardon the corniness of the phrase—shows up in mythologies, religions, folktales and stories all over the world, everything from the ancient Greeks and Egyptians to Arthurian/Celtic legend to Tolkien to Avatar: The Last Airbender. It’s an extremely resonant image for a number of reasons, which Jordan no doubt knew very well.

Where he eventually places the Nym in Randland history—as magical singing gardeners, essentially, caretakers from the Age of Legends who are literally in perfect harmony with the earth and growing things—plays into that archetype very nicely, and their disappearance/extinction during the Breaking is just one more symbol of the Fall. Evil enters the world: no more perfect Garden for you, bub. Gotta get the Biblical bit in too, of course.

(“Nym” is interesting because as a root word it actually just means “name” or “word”, which is neat but kind of random-seeming to me. If Jordan meant for that to have some other cultural reference beyond the literal translation I haven’t been able to think of it or find it. Maybe he just thought it sounded cool. If so, he was right.)

This is Jordan at his best, in my opinion: I always loved him most when he was merrily smushing cultural, mythological, and historical references together like the whole of human history was his personal can of Playdoh. It works so well because history has always done that anyway; the smushing, as it were, is itself a resonant cultural touchstone.

(But I bet no one else has ever quite described it that way, heh. *is proud*)

The “Tree of Life” (aka Avendesora) first mentioned here is an even more archetypal concept; there’s hardly a culture or religion on the planet that doesn’t have some version of this idea floating around. The most direct link Jordan makes to it in WOT is the Buddhist iteration (“Ghoetam under the Tree of Life”), but it’s basically everywhere. As a species, we have nearly universally assigned trees some serious significance when it comes to constructing our worldviews. It’s a thing, is what I’m saying.

Meanwhile, back in WOT, I used to never understand how those hundred channelers got all the evil gunk out of the Eye of the World, but post-WH and the Cleansing it’s probably safe to assume they did something similar to what Rand did at Shadar Logoth, just on a smaller scale. Kind of puts Rand’s (and Nynaeve’s, and the Choedan Kal’s) power level into an interesting perspective, too; as far as I can tell, those hundred channelers are to Rand and Nynaeve as a bonfire is to a nuclear reactor. Damn.

But that all comes much later, after some serious power-ups on the part of Our Heroes, which brings me to the main thing that peeved me about this chapter, which I discussed in my original commentary: namely, that they really all should have died right here. Funny how Aginor and Balthamel were content to just fling everyone around instead of, you know, setting everyone on fire or crushing their hearts in their chests or any of the many other very creative ways channelers kill people later on in the series.

But as I also noted, this is a feature of the genre, not a bug—and I swear that TV Tropes must have an entry for this phenomenon, where the difficulty of the challenges is more or less directly proportional to the skills of the main characters, but I can’t find it. This one is close, but it’s a narrative trope just as much as it’s a gameplay mechanism. Oh well.

Balthamel’s death was still hella cool, anyway.

[Aginor:] “I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more.”

Well, as irritated as I was with all the later resurrecting of the bad guys, I can’t claim that at least a couple of them weren’t set up from the start.

Chapter 51: Against the Shadow

Redux Commentary

Well. I have to say, I really don’t have a lot to either add to or disagree with what I said about this chapter in the original commentary. On the one hand, that’s probably disappointing from a “wanting new material” perspective, but on the other, I can probably be proud I summed my feelings up so well the first time around.

Because knowing the end of the story now doesn’t really change very much about the fact that this chapter remains a glaring handwavy ambiguous anomaly compared to the rest of the series. I still don’t know whether Kari al’Thor was real or not, I still don’t know whether that was really the Creator talking to Rand, and if so, I still don’t know why he’s apparently one of those infuriating godlike people whose declarations don’t make no dang grammatical sense. “IT IS NOT HERE”, “I AM WHO AM”, blah blah blah, it’s annoying as all get out.

Deities, man.

*orders lightning rods on Amazon*

However, one difference between then and now is that now I am pretty sure that whatever else may or may not have been happening here, Rand really was physically at Tarwin’s Gap, and really did annihilate a metric fuckton of Shadowspawn all by his lonesome, and among other impressive maneuvers apparently managed to spontaneously invent “Rolling Ring of Earth and Fire” long before Taim’s wannabe ass ever even began to think of it. Take that, buttmunch.

Everything else, however, is still very much up in the air as far as I am concerned.

But hey, you know, the ambiguity worked out very nicely for Rand, since otherwise I have strong doubts that he would have survived ignoring basically every single one of the rules for wielding saidin we learn about later. Lucky break, that. I guess when it’s the super-refined weapons-grade non-taint-cut high class Eye of the World shit you can do what you want.

Like regain your youth, apparently, going by Aginor’s (brief) example. Nice to know that really pure One Power can instantly de-age you as well as do all that other stuff. Sometimes I think we got a seriously raw deal by not living in any of the parallel universes where magic is real, instead of something we just argue about on the Internet.

Fire filled the chamber, a solid flame. He could see Ba’alzamon withering like a leaf, hear him howling, feel the shrieks grating on his bones.

Then again, maybe not.


And that’s what I got for this one, kids! Come back next week, when we polish off this puppy! Again! Cheers!

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Leigh Butler

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R0bert
9 years ago

I think, regarding Aginor and Balthamel not immediately killing everyone, as well as the whole trope you mentioned about characters always having villains around their skill level all ties in together.

Balthamel — not exactly an overly effective Forsaken throughout the entire series; more of an evil lech going against a party with a lot of women in it at this time. He definitely, personality-wise, comes off as more the “play with your food before eating it” than a “get stuff done. NOW.” sort of evil. And before he even got that far with his playing, he and the Green Man went out together.

Aginor — Right up there with Asmodean as far as being ineffective in battle. His strength was as a mad scientist who created all the wonderful tools of the shadow we got to know and love throughout the series. But in actual combat, he was a bit of a wuss. Like a mad scientist, his biggest strength here was his willingness to deliver a bit of exposition before his general fighting incompetence showed itself and Rand was able to dispatch him despite not really knowing what he was doing.

I’d have to imagine that when it was all said and done, Demandred’s greatest regret was not waking up first. If that happened, all our heroes, the Green Man and roughly a 20-mile plot of land would have been incinerated very, very quickly. Before Rand could have even said, “But I have no idea why you hate me so much, man!”

Avatar
9 years ago

Maybe it’s CAPSLOCK HARRY. (Sorry, wrong reread!)

RoyanRannedos
9 years ago

Taken in isolation, it’s true: it doesn’t make much sense why they don’t just kill everyone. But throughout this book, Ishy keeps trying to turn the boys to the dark side. And even though it hasn’t been introduced, why kill off the strongest lightside channelers when you can incapacitate them and Turn them with thirteen myrdraal? They’re not even that far from the Town.

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9 years ago

Leigh, above you stated: “JordanCon 7, The Con of the Red Hand is now a thing of the past, even if several of my internal organs still do not entirely agree, but fortunately I’m keeping the spirit alive …”

From your summaries, the spirits were certainly alive and flowing at JordanCon7. A saw a lot of vodka and some blue drinks (looked like they included blue curacao). I hope you at least had some oosquai.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB

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9 years ago

re people or creatures whose declarations do not make grammatical sense: I present the non-grammatical champion – Yoda

Second place goes to any Illian (I do be keen on their speech pattern).

IIRC, RJ once said that he envisioned the Illian accent as a cross between as a Texas accent and Dutch accent. Of course, I may do be misremembering.

Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB

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9 years ago

For me, the Illianer accent always reminded me of the Sea Captain from the Simpsons. In fact when I picture Bayle Domon in my head, the Sea Captain is who I see!

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AeronaGreenjoy
9 years ago

*waves* Hi Aginor, my favorite Chosen Forsaken! Too bad you got yourself killed so early and didn’t do anything interestingly Shadowspawn-related after being reincarnated.

Dragkhar were described here as having “soulless eyes in pale men’s faces and winged bodies that had nothing of humanity in them.” By contrast, the BWB says their bodies are human (aside from the wings) and their faces quite inhuman. Tsk.

Ever since I started reading A Song of Ice and Fire, I’ve been endlessly amused by Myrddraal being called “Halfmen.”

From the original Read:

“How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Fish.”

Did Siuan Sanche write that joke? Fish is her answer to everything. (Love ya, Suian)

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Herb4336
9 years ago

@1, good point. RJ had a lot of fun building the Forsaken up then showing them to be bittering hacks. The villains weren’t the only ones who leveled up, either, I forget exactly how things went here but Moiraine goes straight to the nuclear option the next time she encounters a Forsaken.

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Herb4337
9 years ago

Rand at Tarwin’s Gap is one of my favorite images from the entire series, and all of fantasy. It gets a nice callback later when he defends Maradon too.

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optimality
9 years ago

The trope you’re looking for is Sorting Algorithm of Evil.

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cdrew147
9 years ago

Hi all, I finished the books last year, and I’m now re-reading them. I love these recaps!

I think you maybe got it right on the first re-read that Aginor and Balthamel had just gotten out of the Bore and were presumably bored and would play with their “food.”

Also, if we had the structured magic of later on, how would RJ explain Rand going to Tarwin’s Gap, entering Ishamael’s dreamshard (if that is what it was) and incinerating Aginor? Rand does perfectly well with what he has here.

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9 years ago

God dammit @10 I wanted to be the nerd who posted that!

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lfb
9 years ago

@8 – As well she should.
@10, 12 – Damnit, you KNOW tvtropes.org is a timesuck-and-a-half. Stop it! Stop it now! :)

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9 years ago

Wow… TV Tropes. As long as I’ve been on here I have refrained from clicking on any TV Tropes links because I had read that it is a total mind-freezing experience. But I just couldn’t resist the link to Sorting Algorithum of Evil, and then more links to Sealed Evil in a Can, to more links, to more links… just, Wow.

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9 years ago

@14- ahahahahahaha!

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scm of 2814
9 years ago

I always assumed ‘Nym’ was a reference to ‘Nymph’, as in tree nymphs and such, in the same way that Ogier will transmute to ogre and Trollocs become, separately, trolls and orcs. Words change as time passes, and everything is misremembered and all that.

I’m still trying to work out how you go from ‘Avendesora’ to ‘Sephiroth’, though maybe that’s the wrong reference. No, not the game, it’s something else.

Balthamel is canonically one of the Shadow’s spymasters, not a front-line combat specialist. Plus at that point Channeling was still in it’s vague infancy. For the purposes of writing that fight scene, looking scary and badass and invicible was a greater show of power than throwing around balefire.

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kinosupremo
9 years ago

Personally, I live for the posts that have links to TVTropes.

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9 years ago

AeronaGreenjoy @7
The BWB–or whatever we choose to call it–isn’t necessarily canon. Most of it was taken from RJ’s notes, but there are parts where Teresa Patterson was filling in the blanks as she saw fit (per RJ’s instructions). If there’s a conflict between it and the WoT books, then the books should probably win.

cdrew147 @11
I took it for a dreamshard too. We’ve seen a couple examples previously in this book, so there is a precedent. This one didn’t exactly play well with the rules BWS constructed later, but close enough. Where’d I hear the phrase vague infancy recently? ;-)

I try to stay away from TV Tropes, it’s like 17th Shard: good stuff, but you can look up from your screen and find out 3 days have gone by while you were browsing.

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9 years ago

WHEN YOU DO THINGS RIGHT, PEOPLE WON’T BE SURE YOU’VE DONE ANYTHING AT ALL.

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AeronaGreenjoy
9 years ago

Ah, TV Tropes giveth and taketh. It taught me that anything I can think of to write about has already been used many times…but also that vorarephilia is a Thing. Surf at your own risk.

wcarter
9 years ago

TV Tropes pssh. I can resist the time suck. I mean what’s the harm in one little click? Now I’m just going to find out about this whole Sorting Algorithm of Evil thing for context then get right back to work.

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9 years ago

If the Green Man has been guarding the Eye since the Breaking 3000 years ago, how could he have seen Avendesora 2000 years ago?

The corridor to the eye seems to be made of the same substance as the bridge at Whitebridge.

The only reversed aging we have seen elsewhere is when an AS is unbound from the Oath Rod.
Why doesn’t Ishy look worse than Aginor and Balthamel?

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9 years ago

Good question @23. They tell us that he was not really caught, that he has been free and up to no good this whole time. My initial thought was that since he was free, he was able to channel all the time and that slowed him as it does any channeller, but I don’t know if we are ever told that you have to channel the Power in order to slow the aging process. I mean, if an Aes Sedai decided to go and live in a Stedding for a long time, would the slowing process stop? Would they start aging normally? The other explanation would be that his use of the True Power slows aging even more than the One Power…

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9 years ago

Isn’t the point of serving the Dark One to gain everlasting life? I thought the Forsaken were kind of granted that. But apparently not, since Balthamel and Aginor aged. Or maybe the immortality was conditional on True Power use, or the Dark One actually able to touch the world (not being imprisioned). Or even, immortality was kind of like what happened with the Toxic Duo afterwards, gaining new bodies with their old memories back.

Another possibility regarding Ishamayel: he could not age while imprisioned (like Lanfear, Be’lal, Rahvin, etc), but age normally while outside. He’s not so near the edge he ages like Balthamel or Aginor, but he’s able to escape by some other means. The amount of time Ishamayel spent outside the prison was never explicit, but it was something like a few years (or, at most, two or three decades) every millenium, right?

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9 years ago

I didn’t think Ishy was able to escape at all, like the others, but I could be wrong…

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@playdohMaster
9 years ago

@25 – I got the impression that everyone had their own reward and understanding of why they served, but that none of them were right, because the Father Of Lies never intended to uphold anything anyway, they were tools to an end.

Leigh – my toddler eats the playdoh sometimes, so I got a vivid picture of RJ mashing up his worldview and popping some in his mouth as he ran the rest through the mill to squeeze out what he wanted in glorious rainbow strands of fiction. Beautiful. thank you!

…and then of course the metaphor works as the rest of us bitch about all the little bits left stuck in the playdoh tools as we try to clean up the mess when he’s done playing…

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tvtropes
9 years ago

Anybody else get the impression that you could come up with decent stories just by randomly surfing tvtropes? That would at least give you the bones that work for a myriad of existing stories, so it’d be like having a consultant as you write. Fun…

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9 years ago

As for Rand & Ny being a nucular reacter to the 100 that created the Eye, well, you’ve mentioned the little matter of the Choden Kal, I think anyone would be a nucular reactor using that thing.

In some ways I kind of prefer the more esoteric and mythological feel of the first book; to a degree that is. I also think it ended this way because they were not at all sure if there would be more books at this point (obviously RJ had more in the pipe, but they had to see if this one would sell at all).

I think Ishy was only partially caught in the bore. He cycled out on 40 and 1000 year cycles, IIRC. On the thousand year cycle, he was comletely free for a time, which coincided with the Trolloc Wars and Aurtur Hawkwing’s downfall, two of the most devistating events in post-breaking history.

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9 years ago

When I see the “It is not here”, I’ve assumed it refers to the final battle, or the time of Rand’s final showdown. It follows Rand’s comment that it has to end, so the response says to me the end is not here.

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mpark6288
9 years ago

I liked this battle a lot the first time I read it, but I also read it knowing what was coming–a lot more books. I didn’t start reading until after Towers of Midnight, so I knew everything was still coming for me. Thus this never struck me that it might actually be the final battle.

But it always struck me that it was originally designed to be that, if the series never went on. Yes there are things at the end that set it up going on, but if the series hadn’t been popular and it had ended here the story is complete. Rand has faced “Ba’alzamon” and slain him, and won a great battle in the Borderlands. This was a starter Tarmon Gai’don, in case no one had wanted to keep buying books all the way to the real one.

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9 years ago

SPS49 @@@@@ 20: Great Futurama reference! Not to mention that it’s true!!

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CatZ00
9 years ago

I read the book when it first came out. I can see what everyone says about it being a stand-alone novel, but it felt incomplete to me, and I was hoping for more.

IMHO Jordan wrote the first 3 books as a “stand alone” trilogy. Most of the books I was reading at that time were single books or, at most, trilogies. I think he set it up as a trilogy, just in case it didn’t do well enough to warrant more.

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9 years ago

Someshta is such a sad figure…even knowing so little about him, and not learning of the Nym until later, his sorrow over the loss of the Age of Legends, at being forced to stay at the Eye alone for centuries, was always palpable. And once Aginor said he was the last of his kind, he became even more tragic. What happens to him is the final touch, and while obviously he went out by his own choice (after the initial burning), he was the one who chose to intervene, and what he became was absolutely perfect, beautiful, and fitting, it was still quite sad. Still…what a way to go, and how awesome at him taking Balthamel out that way. I agree: most unique death ever. And I love that the creepy letch turned into creeping fungus (though I always wondered what was up with the mask that could form expressions *shudders*).

I’m surprised you didn’t get the reference, Leigh, since you brought up the Bible: the Word is what the Gospel of John called Jesus, and it was more generally speaking associated with Creation (“let there be light”). So it makes perfect sense to me that a being associated with plants and growing things, and thus creation, would have a name that actually means “name” or “word”–it’s like an embodiment of the Creator’s will, the utterance of “Be!” given a living form.

Of course the fun bit about the Tree of Life here is that it also plays into Jordan’s idea of cyclical time and mutable legend, since even as it’s a combination of so many myths and archetypes from our world, the Randlanders have themselves gotten the story wrong: thinking the Tree was at the Eye just because supposedly the Green Man guarded it, when it’s actually in Rhuidean, and mistakenly believing there was only one such tree.

While it is very likely true that the channelers who created the Eye did something similar to what Rand and Nynaneve did at the Cleansing, it obviously couldn’t have been identical, since not only was the taint not gotten rid of altogether, but they had no anti-taint (Mashadar) to destroy it with. Which then makes me wonder how it was they managed it…apparently the fact they had nothing to destroy the taint with is why they all died making it, but how did they draw it out?? I guess we’ll never know.

And on a related note, of course, always fun (and gets that little shiver of meaning and mystery) to see Aginor say he and Balthamel were drawn to them by Mat’s dagger (so either they were very close by already, since Moiraine said for anyone to get close enough to feel it they’d have to be right on top of them already, or the Forsaken are so strong in the Shadow that her ward couldn’t block them–likely the latter)…and also say it’s an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.

As much as this underscores the importance of Shadar Logoth and justifies it appearing in the rest of the series, it remains rather inexplicable–since Shadar Logoth (and before it Aridhol) didn’t exist until the Trolloc Wars, during which time Aginor was sealed in the Bore and couldn’t have learned of it, this implies whatever power(s) Mordeth discovered had appeared in previous Ages and always been opposed to the Dark One even as it/they remained another brand of evil. Which of course fits the cycle of the Ages as Jordan described it to us (and shows that even if what Fain became was an aberration, the power he bore was not new or unusual), but begs the question…what form did this evil take in previous Ages…?

The lack of sudden death for the pitiful Heroes: it may be a thing of the genre, but I really do think it’s justified here. We’re talking about Forsaken, who looked down on Lews Therin himself, let alone the ‘pitiful’ Third Agers. As far as they’re concerned at this point, everyone facing them is a weak and unimportant Normal, and one lowly Aes Sedai and her Warder isn’t enough of a threat for them to bring out the big guns. They just got free of the Bore, so they’d be reveling in their renewed connection to the Power (“So long without”) and in their arrogance wouldn’t even use much of it against three backwoods farmboys, one Ogier, and two untrained village women. They probably thought it was fun toying with them, letting them throw themselves with their silly daggers and axes and swords at them, while they waited until they had worn themselves out to take out what they deemed the only threat (Moiraine), claim the Eye, and then torture everyone for information/accolades from Ishamael and the Dark One. By the time they realized they needed to stop playing with their food, the Green Man had already shown up and taken out Balthamel, and it was too late for Aginor to stop Rand from drawing on the Eye. Not to mention, after having been sealed for so long, it’s entirely possible they were still a bit rusty with their channeling so needed time to acclimatize.

Side note: I had completely forgotten Balthamel was clearly considering raping Nynaeve, or at least assaulting her in some sexual manner (probably with the Power, since I doubt his body could, ah, perform). “The pleasures of the flesh…Balthamel remembers much.” Sick sick sick. Also also: how awesome is it to see that even at this point, Mat was trying to save Nynaeve? Would have been interesting to see what the dagger would have done to Balthamel. *dark chuckle*

Aginor’s comment about being given new flesh: I love how this is another example of Jordan’s subtlety. At the time, of course, this just seemed like typical evil gloating. It isn’t until later with hindsight that we see he was being literally honest about the Dark One’s powers and what he had promised his Chosen. Well done.

So, the battle with Aginor and everything that followed. I admit to being puzzled how the untainted Eye could suddenly cause Aginor to grow younger–was he being given back the channeling-induced slow aging he would have had if he’d not been in the Bore? Or was it a combination of so much purified Power with the Dark One’s taint protection also allowing the Dark One to start granting him the immortality he promised?

What doesn’t puzzle me is what Rand did next and how. Let’s follow the bouncing ball. If we accept as the first premise that the area where the Eye is found is part of TAR, perhaps even a dreamshard created by the Aes Sedai who made the Eye which would thus allow it to intersect the real world the way some of Ishamael’s did with Rand, then it all falls into place. Rand, we know, is a dreamwalker. He’s just been granted an enormous amount of purified Power. He’s in some piece of TAR. He’s constantly thinking “away, away.” Add it all up and the answer is: Rand unconsciously, unknowingly, took control of the Eye’s dreamshard enough to open a gateway to the real world (like the ones he and Ishamael used in the Stone in TDR) and flung himself out it into Tarwin’s Gap. (Why there? Let’s just say the Pattern.) Which explains how he could physically be there.

Everything he did next may have broken the rules of saidin, but aside from the Eye’s power, there’s the fact Rand didn’t know there were rules or what they were. When you’re still operating in a dreamshard and thus drawing on a realm where the power of belief and imagination fuels everything, it’d be as easy to circumvent or even break those rules as it was for characters in the old Looney Tunes to defy gravity simply because they didn’t know about it yet. And speaking of the Eye’s power, I am still convinced that the sheer amount of it as well as its purity is why Rand could do the things he did: it basically forced Rand, opening him up to a massive amount of his channeling potential in one go, and it did it without exposing him to a comparable amount of taint and madness thanks to being purified. That is why the Eye was needed, and probably also why Ishamael wasn’t too upset about Aginor’s demise and Rand drawing it–because the only way for the Dark One to win would be for Rand to join the Shadow of his own free will, something that can’t happen if he rots away or goes mad too soon.

Moving on: I have no idea why Rand’s cry caused the Creator to speak to him (maybe because he was calling a name that was associated with the Dark One despite really being Ishamael, and in a place close to Shayol Ghul, the Creator thought the Dark One might actually accept the challenge?), but it seemed clear to me that the “it” he referred to was Tarmon Gai’don itself, or at least the portion of it that was his champion vs. the Dark One. After that the steps were likely Rand manipulating the dreamshard again–recall that after Rand and Ishamael opened gates to TAR in the Stone, they perfectly matched the real world because what they showed was a reflection of reality. Ergo, a gate could have been in the Gap the whole time and we’d never know it because it wouldn’t look like a regular Traveling gate. The fact the steps lead right to Ishamael’s lair which we know is in a dreamshard further support this theory.

And then? Well. I think it comes back to the dreamshard again. We know Ishamael, as its creator, can manipulate it however he likes–which means he can not only create illusions of people Rand knows, but he can do so even when said people walk in the Light and are thus outside the Dark One’s control. Kari being here doesn’t mean she was a Darkfriend any more than it meant Egwene and Nynaeve were–she was an image created in a dreamshard so Ishamael could do whatever he wanted to her.

As to why she acted the way she did, and prayed to the Light with her final breath, two possibilities. One, Ishamael realized in a shocking bit of genre savviness that it’d be easier to persuade Rand if he made Kari act as she did in life (or as Rand believed she did), since seeing and hearing a good and kind woman be tortured by Shadowspawn would be far more effective than the evil versions of the Supergirls who taunt him later in TDR. (Also, if he didn’t know via Fain that Kari was dead, Rand blurted it out, but either way this made it more believable for Ishamael to change his dreamshard Kari–everyone knows the Dark One is Lord of the Grave, so it’d be more believable to Rand that someone who was dead could be manipulated or corrupted than ones he knew to be alive.) The second option, of course, is that Rand unconsciously took control of the dreamshard again (or still) and thus made Kari act and speak in the way he believed she would and should. Yes, it’s supposed to be very hard to control another’s dreamshard, but again, it’s Rand, and souped-up-on-the-Eye Rand to boot.

So, that’s my theory. Can’t be proven, but it makes as much sense as anything else.

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9 years ago

@3 RoyanRannedos: Good point.

@7 AeronaGreenjoy: I will never be able to think of fish the same way again thanks to Siuan. God, how I love her and always will. :)

@9 Herb: And even has a somewhat related explanation: the fat man angreal vs. the Eye.

@20 sps: Oooo, very good point.

@23 birgit: Someshta admits his memory is spotty; presumably he is just incorrect about when he saw Avendesora. Since even if the Eye’s dreamshard was somehow able to travel to the Waste, Rhuidean doesn’t reflect in TAR until after the barrier around it comes down.

Re: Ishy–he was out of the Bore, and thus had access to the Dark One’s immortality; they were stuck in it still but just near the surface, so couldn’t do anything to Heal themselves nor could the Dark One reach them. Or maybe each time he was drawn back into the Bore over the years, he got youthened by the Dark One?

@24 Marie: Hmmm, didn’t even think of the True Power. We know it is just as powerful as the One Power, so it should have the same effect on slowing, and Ishy uses it all the time, to excess. We’ve heard and seen so many negative effects of using it, there have to be some positive ones besides some special weaves and gender not mattering.

@25 Ryamano: That’s true, he was never out too long. The Guide (which we know isn’t necessarily canon) says he was out for forty years as Moerad when advising Hawkwing, but never aged a day during that time. Presumably while he was out and about the combo of channeling at all and having access to the True Power kept him the same age, and then he was suspended again whenever he was drawn back into the Bore.

@30 dragontrainer: This.

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9 years ago

@34 – Ooh, I don’t think I’d quite put together the idea that the Eye was a dreamshard or something similar.

Really interesting thoughts about Mashadar, too.

Regarding the Creator…maybe Rand is talking to himself from another time. ;) Doesn’t he get all Capslock-y at the end?

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8 years ago

@10 well I just got completely sucked into that one…

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8 years ago

: It makes the most sense, as it explains everything I addressed above, plus how need could help them find it. If it’s not a dreamshard specifically (and by that I mean the area around it, the Green Man’s garden, not the Eye itself) it at least has to have some connection with TAR to move the way it does.

: *grins* Did you also check out the related Sliding Scale of Villain Threat?

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